Program: The simple things you take for granted at work

Tom Bevan: The key thing I think as well is this notion of progress over perfection. In lots of life, especially in terms of disability and needs, we've got this thing, we've got to get it right, it's got to be perfect, but it's about the progress.

Lisa Leong: Hello, I'm Lisa Leong and for This Working Life we're going to explore how to make our workplaces more accessible for everyone, embracing progress over perfection. And we'll learn about the access needs of two people.

Teresa: My name is Teresa and I am a support officer in an admin organisation.

Lisa Leong: We're not going to use Teresa's last name, but she does want to share her experience of moving through school and work with a disability.

Teresa: I have Stargardt's disease and I knew when I went to school that I couldn't see the blackboard. So, I went through a lot of tests and then at the age of 11 I was actually diagnosed with Stargardt's. So, that's pretty much my whole primary school gone. I have no central vision and limited peripheral. It's a progressive disease, so I could see more than I can see now. But basically, if you hold your fists up right next to your, on your eyes, near your nose, what, where your fists are, that looks like squiggly lines or for those who are as old as I am, the snow on the TV.

Lisa Leong: Now, Teresa actually left school without reading skills, so she taught herself and her children to read at the same time using very large flashcards. But because of her low vision, she had to think about jobs that were more practical.

Teresa: I never revealed what it was as someone telling someone, I have Stargardt's disease, I'm legally blind. It was both confronting for myself to deal with, I suppose, at a young age, but also other people. I felt that if I shared that information that I wouldn't have been given those opportunities, that I needed to prove that I was a great worker before I disclosed things. So slowly along the process of working, people would go, I noticed that you look to the left when you're talking to me, and that's because I had no central vision. And a lot of people communicate with nodding and visual cues, which I couldn't see. And then they would say, and I would just say, oh yeah, I don't have very good central vision. Oh, can't glasses fix that? Oh no, sorry.glasses can't help me. I luckily had a friend who worked in a kitchen and he allowed me to come in and work with him and eventually he decided to leave and they said, would you like the job of a cook? And this was like a dream. I tried to do an apprenticeship to be a cook and they said I couldn't do it because of my eyesight. So I worked as a cook for a number of years for a few companies and that was a really great experience. I loved hospitality, loved customer service. But once again, my eyes did play a part. So definitely reading dockets and things like that were challenging. So I worked with a great bunch of people wherever I have worked and they have definitely assisted me where I've needed it.

Lisa Leong: Now, before we get to your current role, I know that you worked as a swimming coach as well at a private school. Can you share what happened there?

Teresa: Yeah. So I was there for a very long time and once again, when I started there, they didn't know I had a visual impairment and progressively I was there for a period of over 12 years. So it was a long time and over that time, my eyesight did deteriorate and I had to hop out of the pool and my direct reports were amazing. They were very supportive with trying to keep me employed in the office. However, above them, they tried to ask for things to assist me or potentially move me through the different areas of the school. They weren't very helpful. I met with them on a one-to-one chat about what could they help me with or different roles in the school that may be admin based. They just said there was none available. When you're working in a large environment for a large organisation, that's a little bit hard to believe.

Lisa Leong: How did that make you feel?

Teresa: Yeah, it was actually a double-edged sword. So it really gave me that momentum that I said I knew that I had to move on. I'm a very loyal person and I will stay with the company as long as they'll have me. But I knew at that defining moment that if I wanted to achieve more, which I always try to excel at, that that wasn't the place for me and they weren't my people.

Lisa Leong: A psychologist helped support Teresa to get to the next level in her career as well as overcome her worries about disclosing her condition to those around her.

Teresa: I had all these amazing thoughts and that I wanted to achieve, but I didn't know how to do it. And then part of me was, could I achieve it with my disability? There's certainly been people in my life that have said, why would you want to go and do that? You're blind. And they're coming from a good place, I think, but I have goals and dreams just like everyone else. And there is nothing, I suppose, driving a car and being a surgeon, maybe two of those things. But I see that everything is equal opportunity and if someone can do it, then I can do it too. And it's just finding the path to get there.

Lisa Leong: We'll come back to Teresa a bit later and hear about the adjustments she uses to make her current role more accessible. But now let's meet James.

James O'Brien: My name is James O'Brien and I work for the ABC in audio as the planning manager.

Lisa Leong: James has worked here for a very long time. Then last year, he had a life-threatening emergency.

James O'Brien: I'd been overseas, travelling in Cambodia with friends and I got a cut foot. And when I arrived back in Australia, it was still hurting, but it wasn't bad. However, over the course of three or four days, I went into a coma as a result of diabetes and sepsis kicked in. And then sometime on that Friday, I failed to meet a deadline for work. And so my workmates started to panic because I always meet my deadlines. And they came to my house, knocked on the door, no answer. They eventually called the police, the ambulance and so on. And I was taken into hospital in emergency and the bottom half of my right leg was amputated. As the sepsis had gone up my leg, I had started developing gangrene and so on. So that's what happened.

Lisa Leong: And how are you now?

James O'Brien: Still lucky to be alive. I had four months, roughly four months off work last year. I spent roughly three months in hospital because I was really very, very sick. And I also had some rehabilitation and I also had to learn to walk again and with a prosthetic limb and so on. And then late last year in November, I went back to work three days a week. And then at the start of this year, I went to work four days a week as part of a return to work plan. Physically, I still get tired because it's really interesting. I didn't know this, but when you're an amputee, you're actually doing much more exercise than everyone else because there's much more work involved and so on. Plus other issues like the diabetes and maybe the fact that I'm now 59 years old. I'm not sure how much of my fatigue has to do with those two things, whether it's my illness or the fact that I'm getting old.

Lisa Leong: James joined an amputee support group and has since learned that he went back to work pretty quickly compared to others. His first day back was big.

James O'Brien: My colleagues were really fantastic, visiting me, sending gifts, sending messages, all those sorts of things. So the first day was pretty emotional. I was in a wheelchair on that first day when I came back. I had my prosthetic limb for maybe two or three weeks, but I was still getting around largely in a wheelchair. So that was an interesting kind of experience to come into my workplace and suddenly have to look up at people.

Lisa Leong: And it wasn't only his emotions that he had to deal with. James was experiencing his workplace from a different perspective. Tom Bevan is the Dignified Access Lead for the Australian Disability Network. So what is dignified access?

Tom Bevan: The way our physical buildings are built, even if it's to code, to standard, it's not always dignified. So here at the ABC in Melbourne, we've got stepped entrance, so you've got a ramp as well, so you're compliant. But often that ramp is around the back of the building, through a car park, past the bins. So two people with the need to get in have two very different experiences. And gladly here at the ABC, the stepped entry point is right next to the ramp. So it's perfect.

Lisa Leong: But what can be done about buildings that aren't providing good disability access?

Tom Bevan: One of the things that we've looked at over the last two years in this space is again trying to secure that future. So large organisations who've got many, many buildings in their portfolios want to look at their future. So if they're leasing new space, buying new space, have a checklist. What are the minimum things that you need for your staff, for your visitors, for your work, for your customers, and ensure that. So that means 20, 30 years' time we're not having this conversation because our spaces are accessible.

Lisa Leong: Okay, what's in the checklist?

Tom Bevan: Oh, what isn't in the checklist?

Lisa Leong: Some of the main things that really, at a minimum, if somebody is planning for their future.

Tom Bevan: Well, this is the thing. If we're lucky enough to have an experience of work, we do it day in, day out. Eight hours a day is a major part of our life. So we've all got experience of this journey or path of work. It actually starts at home. That's when it really starts. We're looking at the workspace. So it's getting into the work, the entrance, the lobby, reception, getting around the building. So we look at lifts, stairs. And then what do we do? You're at your workstations. You're in the kitchen making a cup of coffee, bathrooms. Each of those spaces you can look at and at least assess how accessible are they, but also at the same time look at things that you can improve. And if there are really major things, again, call that out. Some buildings have only got stepped entry. And people are scared because, okay, well, we're not accessible. And you're not for some. But knowing that you've got stepped entry and informing that, letting people know that that's the only access point that you've got, gives them the power, gives them the choice of working for you, working or coming to visit you. And that's okay. And that's actually not a bad thing. So again, there's lots we can do. And for the things that we can't, sometimes just letting people know what the go is is good as well. But on top of that as well, sometimes, again, it's around just processes. And a good example of that is something as simple as an invite to maybe somebody who's coming in for an interview, a visitor, just letting them know of what your access options are, but also asking them, do you have any access needs? That's such a simple question. We don't ask it enough. We should ask it always, every day it can change. And that's a game changer.

Lisa Leong: We're learning more about what it takes to make workplaces accessible for those with a disability. You're listening to This Working Life with me, Lisa Leong, on ABC Radio National. Our colleague, James O'Brien, has found some of the spaces at work thatlittle bit more stressful to use now that he lives with a disability, even the space we booked for him to speak to us from.

James O'Brien: The studio I came to this morning, the door was really very heavy. And so I think I would struggle in a wheelchair to come into a studio like this. I also found interesting things like using the disability toilet. It's got an automatic door and I was just terrified that the door was going to open while I was sitting on the loo. And then there are other little sort of physical things around the place. For example, at our Parramatta office, we have a lift there which takes us up to the 39th floor and I would press the buzzer at first and then the lift at the far end would open. And by the time I got to the door, the lift would close. So there were like those physical kind of things that were really a bit of a surprise.

Lisa Leong: According to Tom Bevan, bathrooms are one of the most important spaces to get right when it comes to disability access.

Tom Bevan: So ideally everyone's got every work space or every office building has got accessible bathrooms on every level. So again, I don't have to go to a different level if I need the bathroom. No one else does. Why should I? Often as well though, the key thing with an accessible bathroom is a manual door. We advocate for accessible automated doors, ideally. A door in itself, it's a physical barrier, a big problem. And it's actually one of the most complained about elements of a building to the human rights, Australian human rights, in terms of complaining about heavy doors and especially bathroom doors. So we say automated doors. Now, you've got a great bathroom here, manual door. So doors are meant to be compliant for two kilograms. I've looked at almost 100 buildings across Australia, maybe about 5% of those buildings have doors that are actually two kilograms or less. So it's very common, but it's a key thing, especially for a bathroom.

Lisa Leong: Tom says that in some circumstances, employers can get help to make adjustments for staff with disability.

Tom Bevan: Even within our own membership base, I think it was something like 40% of organisations didn't realise that you could actually get financial support. So job access, government run, it evaluates the need. And then I think even for a physical change, potentially like an example is a colleague of mine needed access through a door. He was a wheelchair user. The door was really heavy, lo and behold. And he had that automated through job access that paid for that change, which helped him. And again, it helped everyone else. So job access is a great place to look for individual financial supports. But when you ask staff members about their workplace adjustments too, a lot of the things that they're asking for doesn't cost much. And it's amazing the change it can make in that individual's life and performance and enable them to thrive.

Lisa Leong: Being able to work flexibly is an adjustment that's really important for James.

James O'Brien: I'm incredibly fortunate to have an office job, which I can do from home. So what I've settled on now is three days in the office, one day at home, and one day where I'm having my medical appointments.

Lisa Leong: In terms of the workflow, why have you decided to break your week up like that?

James O'Brien: Because by the end of Tuesday, I'm pretty tired. So Monday and Tuesday, I work really quite hard. So on Wednesday mornings, I sleep in. I sleep in until about 9.30. It's really good. And I also try and do all of those medical appointments. So for example, I go and see my doctor, I go and see the diabetes educator, I go and see my physiotherapist, I do some hydrotherapy. I do all of those things on a Wednesday. So even though they sound actually quite energetic, it helps break up the week for me and to actually mean I don't have to keep saying to my boss at work, I need to take an hour off to go and do this as part of my rehabilitation. So that's what I've settled on. And then so that re-energises me for Thursdays and Fridays.

Lisa Leong: Let's come back now to Teresa, who works as a support officer. What adjustments help her?

Teresa: So I use a assistive technology called Fusion, which is a blend of JAWS and ZoomText. I also have a large print keyboard. I have two very large monitors so I can zoom in on my screens. And I have a number of smaller devices. I have about the size of an iPad, which can zoom in on paperwork and read it out through a Bluetooth headset if I need to read a document.

Lisa Leong: When Teresa went to a Teams meeting for the first time, she debriefed with her manager afterwards so she could explain her access needs in that environment.

Teresa: So a PowerPoint presentation is very, it's not accessible for anyone that's on the Teams call because accessibility is interesting. So my software picks up that it's an image on a screen, which is exactly what it is. So it just says image if you use your screen reader. But even a PowerPoint that you send to someone, unless you click the accessibility button and actually input what you've put in those boxes into the accessibility, it can't be read out. So PowerPoint is probably one of the least accessible documents if you don't make it accessible.

Lisa Leong: What do you do for those visual cues between people? Do you just get them to verbalise a bit more?

Teresa: Yes, depending on the meeting. Sometimes there's some meetings that people just love to use the chats and they love to use the emojis. Depending if I'm really interested in what's happening in the meeting and it's something that I need to be aware of, then I will just listen to the presenter. And then other times if the meeting is recorded, then I can take the opportunity to go, okay, look, I'll put my voice on and I can, the screen reader will read the chats for me and the thumbs up and tell me who's left and who's there and things like that. So I just have to base it on meeting to meeting.

Lisa Leong: And now that you're in an environment, which is, it sounds like it's way more inclusive, do you communicate with everyone and get them to help you when you are finding things difficult? Say you can't access a PowerPoint or a PDF or a screenshot?

Teresa: Yes, so the beauty about working where I am, they're always willing to learn. Accessibility is changing all the time. So now when I receive something, we quite often will screenshot something. I can't find this. Where is it? Okay, well, it's located in these files. I'll just send a screenshot and circle it. There it is. So I politely just reply back, oh, I didn't mention I'm visually impaired and use assistive technology. Would you be able to write those directions just below the screenshot for me? Or this is how you add alt text and now I just send them a little blurb of right click the button and you can add your own alt text to a photo very easily and quickly. So yeah, just send, and then they always respond with, oh my goodness, I didn't even realise. Sorry, thank you for pointing that out.

Lisa Leong: That's brilliant. And is that hard when I know there's time pressures and deadlines and you're trying to get things done to actually always sometimes have to raise these things?

Teresa: 100%. Yes, there's always days where we're always too busy and the workload is a lot. And also too, I'm human and I can get frustrated. So sometimes, yeah, I feel like I speak a different language because I speak with my ears or see with my ears where people see with their eyes. So explaining that to people can get tiring. So yes, sometimes I've had bad days where it just all gets too much. I either leave that task and flag it and say I'll come back to that tomorrow when I'm not so time sensitive on another issue. And then I can have a conversation. Sometimes I just have to ring them. I share my screen. I put my voice assistance on and I say, this is what I'm hearing in this document. Could you please help change it?

Lisa Leong: James has some frustrations as well. He felt some of his colleagues, although well-meaning, did treat him a little bit differently.

James O'Brien: Some people really weren't sure about things anymore. So I actually had a really interesting instance with a couple of people who started speaking to me a little more slowly and a little more deliberately. Look, I mean, one of the things early in the piece, there was the prospect if I'd been found a few hours later, I could have brain damage, but I don't. But I did found some people started to treat me in a different kind of way at work, which I just didn't anticipate.

Lisa Leong: So what's an example of treating you just that little bit differently?

James O'Brien: You know, whatever you can do, James. If you feel you can do it, those sort of words. And look, I really appreciate the emotions and the feelings and the expression behind that. But don't kind of underestimate me. I'm OK. You know, that sort of thing. It's the feeling that sometimes the extent of my disability is over-emphasised by people.

Lisa Leong: I mean, what's really interesting about you, James, is that you've now got this situation where you've got a different perspective from the one that you've had for quite a long time. And so what are the biggest mindset shifts or perspectives that have opened up for you, James?

James O'Brien: So even though my disability is a physical one, I have started to interact with a lot of people with other types of disability as well. I think I've always been a good ally of people with disability and I do a lot of work in the ABC around this, or have been doing. But now I have this kind of lived experience. And the lived experience means that I'm probably more inclined to look around to other people and what their needs might be.

Lisa Leong: Teresa says there's a lot more to be done to improve things for people with disability at work. Here's her wish list.

Teresa: More people with disabilities in organisations and more people that have lived experience making decisions for people with disabilities. I think education, I think having that conversation about accessibility and inclusion all the time, it opens your mind to thinking differently. And that's how we have to think. We've got to think differently because everyone works, learns differently. So education would be great. Training, immersion training. Recently we ran a white cane day where we had all different levels across the organisation coming out with goggles on of different eye conditions using canes in the city. And it just gave them such a great perspective of what it's like for only 10 minutes, but how to navigate a street. Things like that I think are super important for all disabilities. And you don't know what you don't know, right? So being able to walk in someone else's footsteps gives you that awareness. And once you know, you can't unknow that.

Lisa Leong: Thanks to Teresa, and to James O’Brien, Audio Planning Manager at the ABC for sharing their experiences. And thanks also to Tom Bevan, dignified access lead at the Australian Disability Network. We’ll put some of their resources and guides for making your workplace more accessible in the show notes and on our website. You’ve been listening to this working life with me Lisa Leong. It was produced by Michele Weekes, and mixed by Matthew Crawford, on the lands of the Wurundjeri people in Naarm Melbourne. Until next time, work it like a charm.