Program: Should you do a 'dopamine detox'?

Sana Qadar: You know dopamine, the brain chemical that makes us feel good? It does a bunch of jobs as part of our inbuilt reward system, but sometimes it's not so good for us.

Dr Anastasia Hronis: Often, not always, but often these dopamine-driven behaviours can be at odds with what our values are and what our values are directing us to do. We can build a tolerance to the thing that was once pleasurable and exciting, so that our brain wants to seek out new and more exciting things.

Sana Qadar: Dr Anastasia Hronisis a clinical psychologist and author of the new book, The Dopamine Brain. So in today's episode, we're going on a deep dive into all things dopamine, from detoxes,

Dr Anastasia Hronis: So it's like no music, no exercise, no talking to friends, like people really kind of take it to the extreme.

Sana Qadar: To donuts?

Dr Anastasia Hronis: Yes, yum, this is delicious, we want to do more of this.

Sana Qadar: That's today on All In The Mind with me, Sana Qadar.

Sana Qadar: You open the book with a story about donuts, and I want to start there too because donuts are great. What happened in May 2023?

Dr Anastasia Hronis: Yeah, I love a donut. So May last year was a memorable time of year for me. So the office that I work at is in a sort of office building, and downstairs a new cafe opened. It was fantastic because it was much closer than the previous cafe that we all used to go to, but the best thing about it is that it's run by this Italian pastry chef. He's from Italy, he's trained there, he makes all these wonderful sort of sweets and desserts, but also bread and focaccia and delicious, delicious things. So it's an absolute treat to go to. But I distinctly remember the first time I went and purchased and ate one of their sugar-coated donuts.

Sana Qadar: Oh wow.

Dr Anastasia Hronis: And if I paint the picture, nice and golden and freshly cooked, crispy on the outside, very fluffy inside, right amount of sugar, perfection. And I ate that donut and I was like, I'm going to remember this moment for a long time.

Sana Qadar: And you have remembered it for a long time.

Dr Anastasia Hronis: (both laugh) And I have. Here I am a year later talking about it.

Sana Qadar: And so did this develop into a donut addiction? Like how did you go from that first bite?

Dr Anastasia Hronis: Look, I'm not going to call it an addiction (both laugh).

Sana Qadar: Sure, you're a clinical psychologist, you want to be careful with your words.

Dr Anastasia Hronis: But I will say I've had many a donut since that first moment.

Sana Qadar: Okay, right. And did you find yourself like, were you starting to go more frequently? Were you starting to think about it more frequently? How did that donut permeate your thinking?

Dr Anastasia Hronis: Absolutely. When it was like three o'clock and I'm sitting in the office and I'm like, you know what? I've had a long day. I could really go for like a coffee and a donut. I'd be thinking about like, this would be a really nice afternoon snack.

Sana Qadar: So what does that experience tell us about how dopamine works?

Dr Anastasia Hronis: Yes. So I use that analogy as a bit of a kind of fun one that hopefully people can relate to to sort of describe how dopamine works in the brain. So dopamine is activated when we experience something that is pleasurable. So when I went down that first time to the cafe and I ate that donut for the first time, dopamine would have been firing and activated in my brain saying like, yes, yum, this is delicious. We want to do more of this. We want to eat more of this. So dopamine is activated when we experience something that is pleasurable, but it does something else as well. It's activated in the pursuit of pleasure. So when I talk about sitting in my office at three o'clock and starting to think about the donuts, dopamine is already activated and its activation is actually what motivates me to get up out of my chair, go downstairs, walk into the cafe and purchase and eat another donut.

Sana Qadar: I guess people I think don't realize the motivation aspect of dopamine as much. Like they think you have the thing, that's when you get the hit, but that's it's more so in the motivation, right?

Dr Anastasia Hronis: Yes, absolutely. And that's why dopamine is very much involved in the development of addictions because it's not just when we experience the pleasurable thing that dopamine is activated, but it's in the pursuit of that pleasurable thing again and again and again that dopamine is activated and drives us towards seeking it out.

Sana Qadar: So it plays a role in pleasure and motivation. It also plays a role in movement and memory. Is that right?

Dr Anastasia Hronis: Yes, absolutely. So dopamine does a whole range of things in the brain and body. It's even kind of involved in regulating our kidney functions and all sorts of wonderful things. But yes, you're right. It's involved in memory and movement. So if we think back to why do we even have dopamine, if we kind of go back to prehistoric times, caveman days, it was hard to survive back in those days. You know, there were lots of threats. We had to work hard to kind of forage for food, hunt the lions and the tigers. And so when the caveman would kind of find some food and eat it, dopamine was activated to be like, yes, this is good. Do this again. We need this to survive. Same with sex and procreation. Dopamine is activated because we need survival of the species. And so that motivates people to have sex and reproduce. But the thing is, nowadays, all that is so much easier to come by. We don't need to work as hard. And so from the context of what dopamine does, it helps us not only motivates us, but it helps us remember, okay, that thing that felt really good or that food as a caveman that I found in those bushes, you know, the berries or whatever fruits it might be. I need to remember that that existed and that that felt good. And then I need to actually motivate and move myself to go out and seek it again and again. So that's why it plays that role in pleasure, but also memory and movement towards the pleasure.

Sana Qadar: And you draw an analogy between modern life and Disneyland in the book when it comes to dopamine. Explain what you mean by that.

Dr Anastasia Hronis: Yeah. So I kind of talk about Disneyland as an analogy for how we can sometimes also build a bit of a tolerance for what the brain gets excited by. So if you imagine kind of going into Disneyland for the first time, dopamine would be firing because there's lights and colours and sounds and it's exciting and you eat fairy floss and you meet characters and it's like so much fun, right? I mean, I haven't been, but I would imagine it's a lot of fun.

Sana Qadar: (Both laughing) Same, I always wanted to, but never got there as a child. I don't want to go now. No thanks.

Dr Anastasia Hronis: So it's like Disneyland for your brain where like dopamine is being activated. But the thing is, if we sort of flip that script and imagine that you worked at Disneyland, you went there every day, you heard those same Disney tunes on repeat again and again, lights, colours.Your brain would not necessarily be like, wow, this is so exciting. Every single day you'd build some sort of tolerance to it. That relates to how kind of dopamine also works in the brain. We can build a tolerance to the thing that was once pleasurable and exciting so that our brain wants to seek out kind of new and more exciting things.

Sana Qadar: And so what makes modern life like Disneyland then? The fact that we have phones in our hands basically, pinging and ponging and all the rest?

Dr Anastasia Hronis: Yeah. We can access anything, right? With technology these days. So there's sort of, it feels like at least there's no limits on what we can access that's exciting. So it's not so much the case. If I think back to the day of phone where I used to like play the snake on my Nokia, it's like that was as much fun as my phone could give me.

Sana Qadar: That was great fun too.

Dr Anastasia Hronis: Yeah. I loved it. But like nowadays there's so much more that we can access, which means we get maybe sometimes kind of smaller doses of dopamine being activated, but more frequently.

Sana Qadar: Yeah. And the fact that the brain adjusts to that level of dopamine coming at it. Can you describe what happens to our natural dopamine production?

Dr Anastasia Hronis: Yeah. Well, it kind of means that things maybe that previously sort of activated dopamine and gave us that sense of pleasure might not feel as pleasurable anymore because we can access that sort of dopamine activation in so many different ways. So our tolerance to what actually is pleasurable for us kind of builds and builds. The brain likes what we kind of refer to as homeostasis. It wants to be in balance as much as possible at all times. And so it will kind of adjust its natural baseline if we are getting too much of that input that's activating dopamine so that it's not being activated as much.

Sana Qadar: So does that mean that our environment is limiting our natural dopamine production now at this point?

Dr Anastasia Hronis: It can. It definitely can. So if by environment you mean like our access to like TV and technology and like, you know, binge worthy series and things like that. Yes, absolutely. The kind of more that we're inundated with things that can give us those small shorter kind of bursts of dopamine being activated, the more the brain kind of will adjust its baseline.

Sana Qadar: Yeah, that sounds really scary to me that we're limiting our brain's ability to produce dopamine itself because we become so reliant on the way dopamine is activated from phones, food, TV, all of it.

Dr Anastasia Hronis: Yeah. Yeah. And I guess part of the scary thing is as well is that it's an unconscious process like we don't necessarily know it's happening to us.

Sana Qadar: And so the role of dopamine and addiction like clinical addiction is well established. But so what about those of us who just have like an unhealthy relationship with our phone or with certain foods like donuts? You know, is our dopamine also out of whack?

Dr Anastasia Hronis: Yeah. So I talk about in the book trying to help people identify something that they have an unhealthy relationship with. As you said, it doesn't necessarily mean it's kind of a full blown addiction of sorts, but something where we feel like, I don't really know that this makes me feel that good or maybe it does make me feel good in some ways, but there's also some sort of consequences for me in ways in my life. So being able to identify what those things are, if it's online shopping or if it's social media or if it's gambling or sports betting or any, it can be so many different things, identifying what that is for someone, that thing that they have a bit of an unhealthy relationship with and looking at how we can make changes.

Sana Qadar: And so when we have an unhealthy relationship with our phone or food or whatever else, there's a feeling that you get after you scroll too long, which is kind of like a hangover. You kind of just feel a bit crap. It's not great. And you sort of can feel that after too many sweets as well or whatever else. What is happening with the dopamine that's leading to that feeling?

Dr Anastasia Hronis: Yeah, it's that feeling of not feeling so good. Maybe sometimes a bit of regret. Like, you know, if we think about doom scrolling, you get stuck in that for a little while and then at the end you're like, hang on, what did I just do for the last 20 minutes? Yeah. So dopamine is activated very quickly when we immediately experience that pleasure, but then it kind of drops off. So if I give you the analogy of eating the donuts, it's like the first couple of bites, I'm like, yes, hooray, dopamine party in my brain. But then probably after the third or fourth bite, I'm thinking about other things. I'm doing other things like because dopamine's role is to get me to experience that pleasure. Once I'm there, it's like, great, my job's done. And so we don't feel it's that's why we don't feel that kind of long lasting feeling of pleasure, but it's very short and in the moment.

Sana Qadar: That's really sad.

Dr Anastasia Hronis: Yeah. And then if we think about what things like social media do, they keep us there. So dopamine like gets us there and social media, you know, the ways that platforms work, they keep us there. So if I give you the example of back in the day, Facebook on the home feed, you used to scroll through your home feed, see what people were eating for dinner, etc. But you'd get to the bottom and there'd be a button that said, click to see more. And then you'd be like, okay, am I going to choose to see more or am I going to choose to go away? There's no click to see more anymore. I could scroll until Christmas, right?

Dr Anastasia Hronis: And that's because that formed some sort of circuit breaker to kind of bring people back into a bit more of conscious awareness to make a choice as to whether they want to keep scrolling or not. Same with streaming services and the likes. You don't have to click to start the next episode. It will automatically start playing for you. So the way technology functions, it's designed to be what they call sticky. They want us to stay on there for as long as possible.

Sana Qadar: It's such a strange dynamic, though, because so, yeah, they want us to stay on and be sticky. But the longer we're on, the crappier we feel. And so then I would imagine over time you start associating that crappy feeling with that platform that tries so hard to keep you there so long that you start to feel crap.

Dr Anastasia Hronis: Yeah. So this is where, again, we think about dopamine. So dopamine likes what's new and exciting. And so when we go on social media, for example, there's this feeling of like, oh, I might have likes, I might have follows. I might see something that's really interesting. I don't know if I will or I won't, but I know it exists. I know that social media can be fun in some way, but I'm waiting for that to happen. Same with sort of TV shows and things. It's like I know I'll enjoy some part of it. I know there's gonna be some part of this that is good and fun. I don't know when that kind of enjoyment comes, but I'm waiting for it because I know it exists.

Sana Qadar: Yeah.

Dr Anastasia Hronis: And so that's what keeps us there. And then it happens and dopamine's like, oh, yeah, there it was. And then it kind of dies off a bit and we keep watching or keep scrolling. It's like, oh, yeah, there was that interesting or funny video that I saw. So it's kind of this like tech being sticky, but also the way dopamine is activated. We call it intermittent reinforcement. It's like we know that reinforcement's coming. We just don't know when. But that's kind of what makes it exciting to the brain.

Sana Qadar: That tech's effective. OK, I want to talk about how we can successfully limit these dopamine driven behaviors. But before we get to the successful ways to do this, I want to look at one method that's kind of all the rage at the moment. There's a lot been written about it online. I'm talking about dopamine fasts and dopamine detoxes. Can you explain what that is? And then does it work?

Dr Anastasia Hronis: I think I think dopamine detoxes came about with good intentions, right. So I'm going to say there's good intention behind it. But the way it's been sort of communicated online has really sort of lost the key message. What people have started doing are these very short 24 hour detoxes where they try and deprive themselves of anything pleasurable that might activate dopamine. So it's like no music, no exercise, no talking to friends. Like people really kind of take it to the extreme with a view that this is going to somehow kind of reset dopamine levels in the brain. I think all that's going to really happen for people is they're going to experience 24 hours of discomfort. And that might feel like it's doing something because it doesn't feel good in the kind of body. But realistically, 24 hours is not long enough for us to make any kind of meaningful or long lasting change. It's all it's going to do is like teach us how to kind of maybe ride through some urges. But other than that, it's not really going to reset any kind of dopamine levels or make any long lasting changes for us.

Sana Qadar: So how did the idea emerge and how has it become so like twisted out of, you know, what like what's actually effective?

Dr Anastasia Hronis: I think that I think the word detox has a lot to do with it. So it's like we can't actually detox from dopamine. Dopamine is like essential for the for the body's survival and functioning. It's more about kind of just like taking a break from the thing that we have an unhealthy relationship to. I think that's where the origins really come from. But it's just that I think social media like something that's catchy and something that's a little bit kind of extreme that people can jump on board with. And this made its way through Silicon Valley and things like that. So I think it just grew and gained a bit of momentum.

Sana Qadar: Yeah. Do you have any thoughts on why it took off in Silicon Valley, you know, in particular, like what with those types?

Dr Anastasia Hronis: I think it has something to do with society and what society values at the moment. And there's something to be said for like no TV on the on the airplane flights and things like society kind of currently values this idea of like buckle down and like don't do that thing and like push through the hard and come out the other end stronger. And it's like, well, I don't know that that's really what we need to do, to be honest.

Sana Qadar: Yeah. The raw dogging flights. That yeah, that very much struck me as something that's come out of this whole dopamine fasting kind of movement.

Dr Anastasia Hronis: And I mean, if people want to do that, like good on them. Great challenge to set yourself. I mean, sure. But it's not probably going to lead to any kind of like long lasting, meaningful change for anyone if that's what they're seeking.

Sana Qadar: You're listening to All in the Mind on ABC Radio National. I'm Sana Qadar. Today, the role dopamine plays in our brain and how being more aware of that can help us manage unwanted behaviors. I'm speaking to Dr. Anastasia Hronis, clinical psychologist and author of the new book, The Dopamine Brain, and coming up, taking a break, sitting with discomfort and how identifying your personal values can help.

Sana Qadar: Yeah, and so this idea that like doing a total break from anything and everything for 24 to 72 hours, as you say, that's not going to do much to change how your dopamine is acting in the brain. But there is something to be said for taking a break, right?

Dr Anastasia Hronis: Yes.

Sana Qadar: And so what's the best way to take a break, you know, that will actually affect how your brain is handling the dopamine coming at it?

Dr Anastasia Hronis: Yeah. So absolutely taking a break is a good thing for a few different reasons. One, for the reason of sort of like trying to reset those those levels in the brain and thinking about kind of how tolerance is built and can readjust. That usually does take a bit of time, though. I recommend people choose what feels realistic to them, but don't make it kind of one or two days, more like a week or two. But the other thing that gives us the opportunity to do is think about how we kind of sit with discomfort in life. So if we take away something that previously, you know, felt good in some way, if I take away Instagram and I used to scroll Instagram often, I'm going to feel some sort of discomfort that comes about. I'm going to, you know, I've done this before where I like log out of Instagram on my phone for like a week and then I go to automatically press the icon to jump back in. I'm like, oh, I'm doing that thing where I've logged out of Instagram. But like automatically my behaviour will go to to press the icon again. So it gives us the opportunity to sit with discomfort and build the skills to be able to sit with discomfort because that's a normal human experience. We have pain, whether that be emotional pain or physical pain in life that we need to be able to ride through and ride through effectively without just trying to distract ourselves through it. It also gives us the opportunity to think about what else could I be doing if I wasn't there scrolling through Instagram or online shopping or gambling? What could I spend that time doing and how can I make that something that's more values aligned or meaningful for the life that I want to live?

Sana Qadar: So there's the psychological reasons that taking that longer break can help. Is there also something happening at the chemical level in the brain if you take a longer break over two weeks as opposed to the 24 hours?

Dr Anastasia Hronis: Yeah. So our tolerance levels that may have built up over time will sort of come back to our natural baseline. We all have some sort of natural baseline of how sensitive we are to dopamine being activated. And so if that tolerance is built over time, it will come back to sort of its original baseline.

Sana Qadar: As we're taking a break or easing off these dopamine driven behaviours, you write that you also need to build the new. That's really important. Can you explain more about that?

Dr Anastasia Hronis: Yeah, absolutely. If we try to just stop doing something, if I want to like just stop social media for two weeks or if I want to stop gambling for two weeks, I might be able to last those two weeks. But the thing is, when the two weeks ends and I go back to it, I'm probably just going to very quickly settle into the pattern that I was doing before. So when I talk about building the new, I'm talking about building new skills and new patterns for ourselves that are going to be sustainable once we do decide to reintroduce that thing we're taking a break from. Because I expect that most people will decide to kind of go back to social media, will decide to go back to whatever it was they were doing before, but maybe with some more kind of moderation in place.

Sana Qadar: Do you think people generally, if they really want to kick a habit, but it's a very ingrained habit like this, they might need help to get through that kind of two week period or beyond? You know, do people generally you find need like a counsellor or someone to like walk them through this kind of process?

Dr Anastasia Hronis: It depends on how, I guess, addicted or kind of hooked they were onto that thing and maybe how long that sort of reliance on it had been there for. So there's certainly people who can do, who can change those sort of patterns without seeking some kind of professional support. But then there are people who I'd absolutely recommend do that. And specifically, if we're talking about substances like alcohol and drugs, this isn't necessarily recommended because that's a really specific process that people need to go through with guidance.

Sana Qadar: Okay, let's talk about balance and values and purpose. What role does trying to like identify your values and balancing out pleasure versus purpose have in all of this?

Dr Anastasia Hronis: So if we think about kind of, I talk about pleasure versus purpose, pleasure is what we get from that kind of dopamine activation, that short term kind of gratification. But what we know is that for people who live their life in alignment with their values, they report greater overall kind of satisfaction and contentment in their life. And that's a really different kind of feeling to the short term pleasure. It's that kind of if I sit back and think about my life overall, how kind of satisfied and content do I feel with the life that I've lived up till now and the life that I'm living going forward? And so I say that often, not always, but often these dopamine driven behaviors can be at odds with what our values are and what our values are directing us to do. And it's not to say that we don't want to ever engage in some of those dopamine driven behaviors because it's nice to feel pleasure sometimes. But we want to make sure that it is always in balance with those values aligned behaviors. So we talk about values as kind of being a bit of a compass that direct us in a particular direction in life. So they're not like goals. We don't ever kind of tick them off and go, yep, I've done that. So, for example, if I have the value of family, I don't go, yep, I've done the family thing onto the next one. But rather it sticks with us through our life and helps us make decisions and plan goals for ourselves.

Sana Qadar: And so, yeah, how would you advise people go about identifying their values?

Dr Anastasia Hronis: My first go to is always to get people to just sort of brainstorm and generate for themselves. What do you think your key values are? What are those things that are most important to you that kind of serve as a bit of a moral compass in life? But those qualities of your life that feel most important to you. And usually people will at least give me one of the following family, friends, career or health. Like very kind of standard ones that come up. Great. That's a really good like platform for us to work from originally.

Sana Qadar: What if your values are all of those? (both laugh) Are you overloading your values?

Dr Anastasia Hronis: And there's usually more. But from that, I encourage people to do an exercise, which is something we do in acceptance and commitment therapy. So I certainly didn't come up with this myself or own it, but it's used in a lot of therapy, which is to imagine yourself at a later point in life. So say you're 80, 90 years old. Reflect back on the life you lived and think about how would you have want to have lived your life? What sort of person would you have wanted to be? Would you want to be someone who is kind and compassionate and empathetic? Would you have wanted to be someone who was creative or adventurous? Would you want to be someone who has a strong sense of justice and advocates for what they believe is right in life? So this sort of reflection about who we would want to have been and how we would want to have lived our life helps guide us to what those additional values are. Maybe it's like, oh, people like, actually, I really value independence or I really value adventure or flexibility or honesty. And that kind of gives insight into some of those more nuanced values that people might hold for themselves.

Sana Qadar: I want to know how you incorporate all these principles into your own life. So let's let's talk about the doughnuts again. And so after you develop this doughnut habit, did you eventually have to take a two week break to kick that habit or like what did you do?

Dr Anastasia Hronis: Thankfully, it never got to the point where I'm like, I need a two week break from doughnuts. It's never become a daily thing. But I guess in the context of my own values, I'm like, well, I value having some kind of pleasure in life. I like eating nice food. You know, that's enjoyable. So I don't necessarily want to deprive myself of that. But I also want to keep that in balance with the value of health. And I know if I'm eating doughnuts every day, that's probably not in alignment with that health value that I have.

Sana Qadar: Have you had to take a break for anything else like social media or whatever? How do you how do you handle your level of social media interaction, given what you know?

Dr Anastasia Hronis: I have taken breaks from social media in the past. I haven't done it probably in the last year or two. I guess I think a lot about the values piece kind of day to day. Like if ever I'm sort of like faced with a decision or I don't know what to do or I'm, you know, I'm not even like have a conversation with someone that maybe is a little bit challenging or difficult. I have to ask them for something. I think about I have to live with myself at the end of the day. And when I reach that 80 year old mark in my life, how do I want to feel about the person that I've been or the choices that I've made in my life? And I know that might sound a bit extreme to think about that in the context of sending an email or having a conversation. But it helps me keep those values at the forefront of mind to help guide me in the direction that feels, you know, most appropriate for how I want to live.

Sana Qadar: And so how do you want to feel when you're 80 or 90 years old?

Dr Anastasia Hronis: I want to feel content. I want to feel happy with myself. I want to feel like I was a kind person, that I respected others, that I made choices that were not just sort of self-serving, but that I could give back to people and to the community. So, yeah, sort of not just living a life that's sort of self-serving, but really thinking about others.

Sana Qadar: And when you think about, you know, we talked about the environment and how it's a dopamine driven environment. It's Disneyland, you know, all of that. Do you worry about how our brains will cope going forward? And especially children growing up now with like, you know, social media, very normal. What do you think about when you think about how we are living at the moment?

Dr Anastasia Hronis: Yeah, well, the kind of emerging theories and research is suggesting that even all the Reels and YouTube shorts and those very sort of quick bite sized pieces of information that we can quickly kind of scroll through means that we're not sort of developing that capacity to build what we would refer to as frustration tolerance. So my ability to tolerate frustration, something that's long and hard and effortful because things are much shorter and quicker and easier these days. So there's sort of suggestions that maybe children who are growing up in this day and age are not developing that skill to be able to tolerate discomfort and frustrations. I would say if it's feeling overwhelming, seek out like a therapist or a counsellor that can support you through that process. But I would really encourage people to take a break and that break is not necessarily forever, it's just for now to help build the skills to be able to manage discomfort in life, but also build in those values aligned behaviours so that life feels more fulfilling overall. And the more content and the more fulfilled I feel with life, the less that I feel like there will be that drive towards those dopamine driven behaviours.

Sana Qadar: That is Dr. Anastasia Hronis, clinical psychologist and author of The Dopamine Brain: your science-backed guide to balancing pleasure and purpose. Thanks to producer Rose Kerr, senior producer James Bullen and sound engineer Isabella Tropiano. That's it for All in the Mind. I'm Sana Qadar. But before I go, I want to tell you about an exciting new podcast. It's called Expanse Uncropped. It tells a seemingly unbelievable story of a banana farmer in far north Queensland who saw something he couldn't explain. You can listen to the entire season right now. Just search for the Expanse podcast on the ABC Listen app. Here's a taste of what to expect.

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